The rest of the changes in this update are all amazing of course, but the whole thing just gets overshadowed by half of the clans being kicked out of the CW competition.

[struck] waiting for app update to see in-season rewards [thanks @JK_3]

This is so broken.

If I create a clan of 1 member, and win 16 games in a season, I get 16 win points.

If I join a clan of 25, same thing.

If I join a clan of 50 [full for the capped clans], same thing.

Now if I win 16 games in a season in my clan today, suddenly I do not earn a single win point. Even though I am performing at the same level, my playing doesn't cause any of the other 0/24/49/300+ others doing only diplos [or idle, or Clan League, MTL, lottos, FFAs, no-split, or multi-day games, or...] to suddenly start playing Clan Wars.

Something is wrong with this.

Why can't we just create one or more teams per clan that are not allowed to match up in Clan Wars? Then it wouldn't matter if there's a bunch of people who never play. We'd have a decent "A" team and some learners/also-rans.

Who out there honestly thinks we had 360+ potential Clan Wars players just sitting there fidgeting until they would have a roster spot open up so they could play each season? [Cats must be really sandbagging!]

Or add a thought experiment. Let's say you own/manage an uncapped clan and had exactly 50 members [same as cap]. Let's stifle laughter from all but a handful of owners, and assume they are all eager, engaged, capable players for Clan Wars who want to play every day. [And don't delude yourself, there's no "bench" - this new system still forces grind participation because you need 25 points and almost no clans are above 50% win rate due to reasonably fair matchmaking]. So some will miss days. and you are likely a bit under 25 points a day.

Now add a 51st similar player. Did your performance improve? On a means basis, no, but on volume, yes. Your "clan" is no worse, but ironically it's -less- resilient because you have to divide by clan size, everyone must still grind. The chance of a person having a big life circumstance is non-zero, so the expected clan score goes -down- . Huh? So no one [players or managers] wants a 51st good player, which is counterintuitive. Moral: More good players don't make you better or more resilient.

Now extend the experiment and try to find what a low-skill trainee would do as a 51st. Score goes down. Moral: Don't train players. They already have a hard time finding a place to learn, and good players don't want lower scores; this has to be a negative for them.

Now extend the experiment and try to find what a diplo player would do as a 51st, fun to have in clan but lost on Strat 1v1. Score goes down. Moral: Clans are for Clan Wars only. Anything you do, if not also for Clan Wars, hurts the clan. Let's homogenize the players and reduce the interested user base...

The biggest failure is that only 25 losses AND non-plays combined are allowed per day per clan. This is broken for small clans too and must be fixed.

ed., in-season rewards prose struck

Edited 10/28/2024 11:05:24

Confirmed that the in-season rewards are for "win points" and not actual wins.

Huh? how?

TLA got "Unlocked 4 rewards for getting to 11 wins in the clan war!" despite having only 1.9 points (0 territories) earned.


EDIT:
I checked the Harmony chat, and it actually had "Unlocked 5 rewards for getting to 13 wins in the clan war!".

So you might have been confused by the fact that those rewards are given out only at midnight?

Edited 10/28/2024 10:44:28

@JK might be, they are not visible on Android yet

Yeah its weird that Fizzer switched the CW system while the apps (which is how most people play) don't support it yet.

I think the “squads” idea where you designate one or more squads of 50 or fewer players as the CW A-team/B-team is a cool idea

The alternative is clans just doing this themselves (“Harmony_CW” with the surprisingly fast learners “Texx_CW” and “Dan_CW”) but this is annoying and cumbersome for everyone involved

that’s one of the options every large clan is considering. most have access to empty clans already. i think everyone is taking this season to see the new reality before evaluating options and making decisions.

You can just take top 35 from a clan. Big clans with lots of participating members will not get a significant boost from that.

The only change that I would care for is the removal or increase of time slots

The current system leaves me unable to consistently play

If the windows were every 2 or even 3 hours, it would be better. Or, if it were changed to be like QuickMatch, but thats just me dreaming.

The current 4 hour time slots just do not line up at good times for me sadly. I’m sure other players have the same problem.

"TLA got "Unlocked 4 rewards for getting to 11 wins in the clan war!" despite having only 1.9 points (0 territories) earned."

I play browser and I don't see this anywhere. Oh wait, I haven't won yet. I'm stunned as me arse.

Edited 10/28/2024 14:39:16

Everyone from uncapped clans is treating small clans as if we all follow the Myth Busters model. We don't.

We are communities, just like yours. We have people who don't care about CW as well, what should we do then? Kick them out because we reached the cap? In Danger Close about 30% of the members play CW casually, less do so regularly. We all have to grind to stay in the coin zone and kicking out friends is NOT an option, while bigger clans that can house more players don't face that problem at all AND have more flexibility than we do: your players can take a pause or miss some games and the clan will still be in the coin zone without much of a problem.

For a long time t7soldier offered coins out of his own pockets to bridge that gap and make the experience rewarding for us as well, but you tell me if that is sustainable or not.

If a clan is twice as big as capped clans, their wins should count half points, because they have the privilege of a flexibility that capped clans don't have. If it's 3 times as big, then a third of the points and so on.

@JK I appreciate your response and understand your point, but I have a point too. TLA has 170 members, it's more than 3 times as big as a new capped clan, then a third of the points (or .3 "win strength" like Fizzer says). Yesterday your win strength was .16, so half of what I would consider fair and under the current system you have to double your efforts to stay on route compared to that. I understand that and I agree that Fizzer's method is not fair, but not as much as everyone is making it to be.

I understand frustration but I feel like part of it has more to do with getting a taste of what it really means to have to grind to stay in the coin zone, rather that getting there comfortably thanks to a large and varied community that capped clans can't have.
Either remove the cap or adjust the point system to make it fair for everyone.

"
If a clan is twice as big as capped clans, their wins should count half points"

Or one could get rid of caps for everyone and put all at the same level.

Morg you might have missed my last sentence.

thekai, the new cap is 50 players. only 25 games are needed to attain (theoretical) maximum points. half the clan can sit every day with no penalty.
only fizzer thinks the mb model is replicable, the rest know it’s not.
even in harmony with 400+ members we still couldn’t find 40 that actually played every day.

We all have to grind to stay in the coin zone and kicking out friends is NOT an option, while bigger clans that can house more players don't face that problem

I understand that things are hard for you, but it's much more difficult for bigger clans. The competition for 2nd spot has been historically tough and it has taken us many countless months of intense effort to reach our level. It's hard enough for you to find ~10 active players, now think how hard it is to achieve 40 active CW participants! Big clans definitely do not have things easy, competition only gets more tense as ranks increase and people have to put in even more effort and coordination.

More clan players do not mean more CW participation. Harmony in particular is a general purpose clan. We want to make all types of players happy. We provide games and tournaments. We offer a lot of fun conversations in our clan chat. We organize world class roster for Clan League. CW is only a part of our clan and maybe about ~10% of our players are serious about it. The 40 player limit removal barely provides any help for us, while in the meantime the new scoring system has caused us massive harm.

Imagine 40 people who have dedicate massive chunks of their lives towards helping our clan achieve great heights. Think about their dreams and aspirations. If this update is not changed, it would basically mean that Fizzer wants for all of our hard work to go to waste.
Within our clan people are extremely unhappy about this insane point system and I'm sure same applies to more clans as well.

The idea that without clan cap suddenly Harmony would have a massive surge in activity is simply wrong.

---

I understand frustration but I feel like part of it has more to do with getting a taste of what it really means to have to grind to stay in the coin zone, rather that getting there comfortably

The grind never went away, it only became more necessary. It's not comfortable to be 2nd clan in CW, every single day our participants have to show up and do their best or else we would risk to fall to 3rd place.

---

Clan cap is not fair. It should go away as soon as possible. Many clans have reached it and then got forced to migrate to bigger clans. Big clans are not your enemy, we understand that things are tough for small clans, most of us have been in your place at some point.

The one person who is making things difficult for you is Fizzer. He is the one who introduced clan cap, he's the one who ignored CW players for years and he's the one who has created this awful scoring system. As far as I am aware many players are considering their options and some form of protest is likely to take place in the future. If you want to make things better, you should try to do whatever you can to help Fizzer understand that current CW system doesn't work and needs to be improved.

imagine being a middle aged game developer having to read all this complete one-sided agenta nonsense and getting blackmailed with the premise I like the uncapped advantage my clan has and noone else has, give it back or else we won't play. yeah wouldn't want to be in fizzers shoes

so if a tiered society exists the fortune must be brought down instead of the less fortunate being raised.
sadly, uncapping clans will never happen so let’s instead destroy them so everyone is equal.

just in case it was missed, that’s sarcasm.

Every active clan, no matter how small is a little community. And I think it's bad that small clans are forced to make drastic cuts in their community to be able to qualify for CW.

While TLA has 170 members, only 25 or so are actually interested in CW. Regardless of how great Fizzer believes CW is, that number has stayed pretty constant (although very slowly going up as we gain some new members).
It's those same 25 members that grind for our CW result, just like you have the same group of players grinding for the CW results every season.
It took us 50 seasons of hard work and grinding to get into the top 5.
Despite what some people think, a clan doesn't get good at CW just because it has a lot of players; if that was the metric Cats and Darklords would be way ahead of everyone.

And yes, it is easier to get 25 interested players out of more players, but the majority just isn't interested.
Big clans had the luxury to not have to make a choice for weather to allow those people to stay or to kick out friends, and could even keep around their inactive friends (like TLA has about 50 inactives r n).

That you couldn't do those things is an issue of the clan cap, which is a terrible idea, and always has been a terrible idea.
We do understand your struggles, the community has been raising all these issues ever since Fizzer announced the clan cap.

But we are obviously not just going to look while Fizzer destroys everything we spend 50 seasons building up to.
Thats why everyone, and in particular those from big clans that only have a small CW group compared to their size (TLA, Harmony, etc) is so passionate about these points.

You don't make a competition fair by shooting everyone that's ahead.
You fix it by removing the handicap from those unable to keep up.
CW can be made fair be removing the artificial restrictions Fizzer put on small clans, not by excluding big clans from being able to participate.

Every time something in CW gets changed, either the small clans get f*cked hard, the big clans get f*cked hard, or both get f*cked hard.
While everything is so simple to fix by just stopping the clan cap.
Or at least raising it far enough that small clans can build their communities without having to worry about hurting their chances to compete in CW.

• Abolish clan cap
• Set target daily players at 20 so clans without a lot of members dont need to spend years recruiting
• Use the # of participants when more than 20 play so everyone that wants to play can play

And of course it's not the end of the world for us to lose the end-of-season rewards, but for those of us that play CW, the competition is a big aspect of why we bother playing at all.
Otherwise we might as well get 10 wins a day (20 players * 50% winrate that the CWR causes), and stop playing on day 6 of the season.

If Fizzer thinks all big clans will disband over CW he's vastly overestimating how many people even care in the first place, and how much the people that do care actually value CW over the clan community.

Surely there must be a way (see suggestion from various people in this thread) that the disadvantage of small clans can be removed without completely eliminating big clans from the competition.

EDIT:
Btw @TheKai, ty for just having a normal conversation about this, i appreciate that (and I hope I don't appear too aggressive in my replies, if i do, it really isn't my intent)

Edited 10/28/2024 17:43:17

The clan cap situation is so easy to solve. Fizzer could even make money from it. He could offer the following:

• Clan size increase by X players for Y coins/dollars.
  
• Uncapped clan size for much higher price.

Fizzer has recently talked about community wishes mattering and even made feature suggestion forum a thing. If he's claiming that popular suggestions should be implemented, then by the same logic he should listen to the community, remove clan cap (or at least provide paid option) and update scoring system.

I understand that Warzone is Fizzer's game, but a successful game also requires happy player base. If Warzone players are unhappy, then it means bad publicity, more players quitting, lower monetary revenues and etc. It's simply common sense to at least do something to address most popular complaints. Right now awful scoring system is more or less the biggest issue, but clan cap is also a problem. Solving them both would really help Fizzer to improve his public image.