By Warlight? He didn't violate Warlight policy.

By the community, for abusing community standards? Perhaps, pending an investigation and confirmation by Fizzer that Semice was indeed likely responsible.

"By the community"

Yep.

I consider doing something on the TLW end, but couldn't come up with anything I could do that wouldn't hurt the clan substantially more than it would hurt Semicedevine. Another organization- like Clan League 8- could also sanction Semice or TLW (really TLW in either case) but at that stage their sanctions would be ineffective as they'd:

a) Essentially cause TLW to become non-competitive and potentially withdraw from Clan League

b) Unfairly punish TLW for not taking some extremely inviable actions (we have a very small number of strategically competent players, and Semice is far ahead of the rest of the pack in that arena)

Promotion/Relegation League, etc., could perhaps take some actions. It's not going to be too harmful to impose some sort of consequences for behavior that hurts the community (although we have to be careful about how we approach it, because it could escalate into harassment and witch-hunts since the community is frankly ill-organized and ill-equipped to punish behavior).

That said, the only effective solution to the "hijacking" problem is for RP clan leaders to be responsible about their treatment of Manager Rights and to actually acknowledge the warning that's right there in front of them in the "Manage or remove players" module instead of thinking that they can transfer full Manager Rights and still be in full control.

Edited 5/19/2016 03:09:16

Still, he/she should be punished. Like perhaps banning the player from clans or any major games aswell as coin games? This of course would be hard to implement without fizzar.

Like perhaps banning the player from clans or any major games

That would entail kicking Semice out of TLW, which would again be punishing TLW much more than it would be punishing Semice.

coin games

Perhaps. Not sure if that would actually pose any sort of meaningful deterrent.

The reason I made this thread was because there isn't yet a WarLight policy against clan hijackings- and yes, they are hijackings IF the clan's membership recognises one member's authority over them as their leader.

In practice, MR do give the authority to remove you from the clan, however that does not make it alright.

For the sake of knyte, let's just examine the difference between scenarios so that he understands what went on during the hijack...

1st Scenario: A leader becomes unpopular with membership, and is removed in a popular coup (Vitrix is a clear example of this). This is not a hijack. It is a coup.

2nd Scenario: A person who is not the original creator of the clan is given manager rights whilst the creator is absent due to retiring etc. This is what happened to facilitate you becoming the recognised leader of The Lost Wolves. You are not the clan's creator. This is not a hijack either.

3rd Scenario: Someone creates an account for the sole purpose of misleading the leader to give them manager rights with the trust that they will only use them for the purpose of inviting people/removing and inviting player/editing the clan page. They then remove the recognised leader of the clan against the wishes of the membership, and take control. This is quite clearly a hijacking of a clan. It occured in the Falcons, it occured in the Wolves, it occured in RE and a few other clans. All perpetuated by the same person, who, according to you, is not to blame due to the fact that the leaders that were duped had the knowledge of the risks they were taking in trusting the person.

I warned you knyte. You are quite quickly losing respect.

Colonel transferred MR to Semice. In doing so- after having read those warnings, he gave Semice license to do whatever he wanted to do with MR. At no point did Colonel even go for an informal agreement about what Semice could do with MR. He made Semice a full owner of his clan, essentially.

Warlight very, very explicitly outlines that Colonel knowingly and willingly consented for Semice to do everything he did- he gave Semice the power to add/remove managers, add/remove members, change the clan page, etc.- this was even highlighted by the "Manage or remove players" module twice in a sentence that specifically begins with "WARNING:"

And now he's complaining because Semice used MR in a way that was perfectly within the bounds of what Colonel had agreed to.

It is quite clear in my conversation with Semice and the documents which outline the power and responsibility of every single clan member that he should not use MR in a manner detrimental to Royal Entente's structure and stability.

Why shouldn't TLW be punished for the actions of one of their members?

Wait. So you actually gave semice power, and knew it was semice? *facepalm* That's about the dumbest thing you can possibly do as a clan leader.

What Knyte is stating, and what you are clearly missing at this point is this: you gave him said power despite lacking any real reason to do so. As such, while Semice is indeed a jerk, and we are not denying that, it was perfectly Legal for him to act as such. What both me and knyte have been doing on this thread is

a. Expose the fact that the handing out of MR in such a manner is your own actions, and obviously increases the possibility of a hijacking radically, and as such is entirely your own fault. In our current TLW structure, the only person to hold MR is Knyte, and All other gov't members basically are there to yell at him in case if he screws up and provide other input. Something that any clan can probably handle where a trusted few(prefferably 1) actually has MR, and all other members of the gov't basically act as advisors.

b. that Semice while being a jerk, TLW atm lacks any plausible way to punish him without hurting ourselves more, which is beyond counterproductive. As such we are just issuing an ultimatum to him to not do it again.

2nd Scenario: A person who is not the original creator of the clan is given manager rights whilst the creator is absent due to retiring etc. This is what happened to facilitate you becoming the recognised leader of The Lost Wolves. You are not the clan's creator. This is not a hijack either.
That's actually false, knyte rose during a hijack that turned into a popular coup. This occured due to way too many people having MR allowing for propulsion to gain MR from Terre who got it from Relm(the leader at the time), and transfer it to knyte. Following that, knyte implemented some radical changes to the clan structure, and rebooted intraclan activity a bit, and basically has become a popular dictator.

So, you'r not going to punish him simply because he's a good player?

Sounds pathetic.

More like he's the best player in the clan by far, and generally speaking TLW doesn't punish long-time members. I mean we have former hijackers of the clan quite literally still in it(Semice, Relm, Heather).

We also don't generally kick people, or atleast haven't done so in the past. Knyte's post-coup mass inactive purge was probably the largest in clan history. Generally speaking, most kicks are parts of inactive purges. As such it would go against clan history to kick someone for doing something other than going inactive.

Lastly, he's also part of the gov't, and happens to be kinda of important in terms of assisting knyte with things like CL rosters, and as such removing such a valuable member would be completely counterproductive for the clan. Removal of a valuable player and gov't member for a few reputation points doesn't sound like a fair trade.

Why shouldn't TLW be punished for the actions of one of their members?

You sanction organizations for failing to control their members, to create some sort of incentive for them to punish their members internally. If TLW doesn't have the resources to create some sort of deterrent to Semice's behavior, then it makes no sense to punish TLW.

If TLW had some sort of involvement in the hijack, then there'd be an independent reason to punish TLW- but since that wasn't the case, it makes no sense to punish TLW without having some intent of causing TLW to punish Semice (or anyone who attempts the same thing) in turn.

So, you'r not going to punish him simply because he's a good player?

Not at all. I'm actively exploring the options; the issue's just that I don't think we have any tool to actually punish Semice.

Kicking him out of Clan League won't be a punishment because he's in there to benefit TLW and render TLW competitively viable. Kicking him out of the clan? He's been one of the few people that actually contribute to its growth and development, not sure how that'd be punishing him. Kicking him from coin games? Yeah, that could work, but that's on Fizzer's end, not the community's.

As soon as I find some sort of action I can take that would prevent this behavior on Semice's part, I'll take it. I've been on the other side of this, scrambling to get CORP running again after Semice hijacked it as The Lone Wolf, and obviously I don't want hijacking to be a common part of the Warlight experience.

TLW doesn't punish long-time members

Well, if our members do something that active hurts the community, need a deterrent to keep them from doing it again, and if we're able to actually provide that deterrent, then that's not going to be the case anymore.

For Semice, the third part is the stumbling block. Right now his punishment is that he'll get kicked out of TLW if he's involved in a hijack, but there's nothing viable beyond that to my knowledge.

We also don't generally kick people

Except for about 50 people in the past month, all for inactivity.


As far as community controversy, the policy of current clan management is to always stand by clan members and assume they're in the right, to guarantee every one of our members a fair defense in the court of community opinion. Obviously, if they do something that doesn't mesh with the clan, we'll independently punish them or remove them, but we're not as willing to bow to random community pressure and worry about reputation as much as other RP clans- I strongly believe TLW provides enough of a benefit to its members, anyway, and will continue to grow regardless of how much random members of the community like us.

basically has become a popular dictator.

Also, lowkey, I plan on restoring democracy at some point not too far in the future and I'm focusing on rebuilding the clan's management infrastructure (i.e., getting a good number of people to step up and get invested in both day-to-day operations and growth) so we can pull off a strong transition to hijack-free non-dictatorial rule. Don't plan on remaining dictator forever. :)

Edited 5/19/2016 03:56:30

the leaders that were duped

Here's your problem, Colonel. You weren't "duped"; you had some stupid expectations about your own degree of control when someone else gets Manager Rights.

Don't transfer Manager Rights to someone if you're not comfortable with them taking yours away. There's no "different scenarios" as far as transferring MR goes- you're transferring control over the clan, plain and simple. As far as MR transfer goes, in the realm of WL policy, there's no difference between even a peaceful transition of power and what Semice did- all it is one person giving another MR and with it full control over the clan.

That's what you did. And now you're just mad because Semice behaved in a way that you weren't comfortable with. Too bad you relinquished any control you had the moment you gave him MR.

So, what your saying is that you don't give a fuck what the community thinks and will keep him because he's a good player?

Well ok then. My respect level for you is rapidly falling.

Edited 5/19/2016 04:04:43

Yep. If you're in the Wolves, I'm not going to remove you just because Colonel and some random player in MSF think I should. If you're hurting the community (and ultimately hurting the Wolves), sure, I'll do what I can- although frankly there aren't any real tools for that.

The Wolves care about the Wolves. I strongly believe that organizations function much, much more effectively when every member can expect to have their support when they need it. Like I said, if you're a Wolf and you're in trouble, we're there for you.

Edited 5/19/2016 04:06:40

yes it stinks..... he's a good player so we don't care that he is the biggest prick in Warlight.
TLW should be ashamed of themselves

"If you're hurting the community"


What the actual fuck, he did hurt the community. And it's not just two player who are angry. He destroyed a whole clan remember? Or have you forgotten?

Really? There's people who cheat the ladders, who cheat in games, and here we have Semice- not even in violation of any Warlight policy, just under attack because Colonel gave him MR without apparently understanding what transferring MR does- called the "biggest prick in Warlight."

I don't condone the hijacking. I think it's bad that it happened. And, in no equivocal terms, I think we should take every step we can to prevent future hijackings, especially after what happened to RE.

But no one's brought any effective measures here and are now calling on us to take measures that are not only ineffective but far, far more detrimental to The Lost Wolves than they are to anyone else.

This is exactly why I'm not going to bend over backwards just to increase forum "reputation."

Either propose some viable solutions- and I'll take action, because frankly I've only been stalled by the lack of options- or understand that, just like the Poon Squad isn't going to kick out QueefBalls when people attack him on the forum, we're not going to randomly take harmful actions to please randos on the forum.

@madking:

Looks like you missed the second part of the sentence: sure, I'll do what I can. If there are no viable options, then my hands are tied as much as yours are.

Give me viable routes and I'll take them. I hate hijackings as much as the next guy.

Right now I've:

- stripped Semice of title privileges within the clan (his title right now is literally "NO MORE HIJACKS")

- issued him an ultimatum- he'll be removed if this happens again and can be linked to him

- suspended him from any clan-wide leadership positions

And this is before any conclusive evidence of Semice's responsibility. I'm already taking extreme measures while the community forms its premature conclusions.

Again, this is why a good clan manager doesn't give a damn about forum reputation and instead bases their decisions on what benefits the clan + the greater community.

Edited 5/19/2016 04:20:44

Ah, so you have punished him. I was under the impression you did not give a shit if one of your members destroyed a clan.


Now lets look at the rest of your argument you claim that because some ladder cheats and such go unpunished that it's justifiable not to punish semice. However, cheating on a ladder is hardly is hardly comparable to ruining warlight for a large group of people.

And comparing queef balls to this is once again a poor comparison since his actions do simply not compare to this.

"This is exactly why I'm not going to bend over backwards just to increase forum "reputation.""

Who said anything about that? All i said was that you appear to be willing to let this slide and that i found that disgusting.

All in all it would help to no end if semice simply publicly apologized instead of cowering behind you.

Ah, so you have punished him. I was under the impression you did not give a shit if one of your members destroyed a clan.

Exact opposite. I've been on the receiving end of a hijack before. Multiple times. Not fun, although I'd still blame a failure of leadership (CORP has some pretty dysfunctional management) more than the hijackers. That's why I've taken measures before we've even found out who was responsible for the hijack.

The measures I mentioned are all temporary pending further evidence. If Semice is definitively linked to the hijack, then obviously we'll discuss more permanent sanctions in the Council.

semice simply publicly apologized instead of cowering behind you.

Semice currently denies that he was responsible for the hijacking (there's been statements both ways), so I honestly don't know what's up and I hope there's some conclusive information we can get from Fizzer.

More importantly, though, I really hope RE's Manager Rights get restored soon, or we're looking about about 40-50 active players trapped in a dead clan.

Edited 5/19/2016 04:40:57

There's no actual evidence that semice did it atm, and He hasn't admitted doing so in private clan forums, as such we're holding this situation as innocent until guilty. However, there is general consensus that he probably did it, and as such we have taken whatever action that seems viable. I mean we have publicly said we don't approve of such actions, so we are not clearly just letting this slide.

Also, cheating on the ladder does ruin it for the approx 350 people on the ladder, if its the 1v1 ladder(which is the most common ladder for both cheating and people), which is a much larger group than RE. As such, it could be viewed as comparable.