I'm interested to see what OP and MB do here

This season is a write-off for OP, MB already has a huge lead and OP member count is too high to recover from for this season. "OP Estimated win strength so far today: 0.46" is a non-starter

Next season though ... OP could boot 29 members and compete. The big diff from OP & MB is in the # of active CW players. MB has a full CW roster, OP hasn't. Could they manage 25? Maybe. If so, they could make a run for it

MB on the other hand, will they continue with a full complement? Actually they grew, at 42 members now. They could shrink to 25, Flex gets an easier job of managing the roster. They could grow to 50, and still man a full roster but only rally troops beyond 25 when they've lost same games that day and feel they could improve with additional wins (but this is always a risk)

Or ... they could create a 2nd clan. Having had 40 members, that means 15 players are not really needed now, so just add 10 more top players and you have another clan that could make a run at 1st place. What bigger flex is there than not just taking 1st place, but taking both 1st and 2nd place?

Or ... 15 players go join OP (and they boot 44 members). Then OP is a serious contender for #1

Or ... OP creates a "MythBustersBusters" clan just for CW (clan icon of a kraaken eating a dragon?). Maybe they go it alone, maybe they recruit those 15 folks from MB. Maybe they use alts and keep active in both clans

If the Turtles got serious about CW, now that would be interesting, even if just for 1 season to take #1 spot just once to show that it could be done

@UzayAltay

But it isnt just a commitment issue, as like to be put it short, if you arent winning head to head games against MB (in a good percentage), you arent gonna take 1st place from them.

You might be able to get away without having to play vs MB for 1 season if you CW rating is low enough. If you have high participation, you'll get prioritized for matchups vs opponents close to your (low) rating (ie: if there are also sufficient low rated players, then opponent is not MB). So as long as you're better than everyone in your rating vicinity, you might escape many MB matchups

But keep on winning and sooner or later you have to face the trials. If unlucky and CW rating catches up too soon, you'd blow the play in the late game season. If lucky, you might win 1 season

But theoretically you could take a new clan with 0 rating or similar to Yolo, a super poorly rated clan with negative rating (or was this fixed so negative never happens now?), fill it with skilled players, and have a good, relaxed run for 1 season

you could even alternate between playing for real and tanking each season (but getting 1 win per player for the rewards)

Edited 10/31/2024 18:04:01

@krinid what you suggest doesn't seem really plausible for getting 1st place, even on the paper. The clan war rating just adjusts quickier then season progression, especially given that you dont only need to pass a neutral 50% wr, but pass MB's winrate that season, with keeping participation high for being 1st.
I think even with starting at 0 rating, it wouldnt take really long.


You can have an easy season without facing MB (maybe except very few games) and finish 2nd, probably that is correct.

The Clan Cap Removal idea has reached #1 spot on feature suggestion forum https://www.warzone.com/Forum/767989-remove-clan-cap This idea currently has 214 votes. It has been steadily gaining votes over recent days and more votes are likely to come in near future.

Since the update I've only seen a total of ~5 different people who were in support of clan cap enforcement. Based on my interactions with the players I know, ~95+% of players support removal of clan cap. Thorough my time on Warzone I've seen many cases of small clans moving to bigger ones (The Hodopian Dynasty going to Harmony, Neets and Excel going to Prime, Fancy Dot moving to The Last Alliance and more...) There are many small clans who wish to grow a bigger community and clan cap much more often is a hurdle rather than any help.

Clan cap enforcement for big clans would also make no sense. These clans did not appear overnight. Clans like Harmony, The Last Alliance, Prime, knyte club and After_Dark have spent years working on improving their communities. The sizes of these clans directly represents the amount of effort these clans have put into making them a fun place to be. Clan Cap would severely endanger these communities and could make all those years of hard work meaningless.

There's a lot of people upset with existence of clan caps and Fizzer could get a lot of support by removing it. Happy players tend to spend more money, so this would be a profitable move. Fizzer could even introduce paid player cap extensions, so he could solve a problem and make additional money by doing it.

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Right now I advise everyone to be patient and respectful towards Fizzer. In his last AMA he stated that he primarily does all the game development and he also does all the talking with the players as well. This takes a lot of his free time, so trying to reach out to him over and over again is only going to make Fizzer more annoyed.

If anyone wants, they can vote in https://www.warzone.com/Forum/767989-remove-clan-cap Fizzer has stated many times that he values Feature Suggestion forum, so it should be the primary way of expressing our concerns regarding current clan and CW situation.

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I think the best thing to do now is to wait for CW season 56 to end. Once it is over there will be enough data to demonstrate how this season has been negatively affected by the most recent CW scoring change.

After that we should allow Fizzer to make up his mind on his own. The votes received in Feature Suggestion thread and current CW season data should speak for themselves.

At some point in the future Fizzer will release the next Warzone update and host another AMA. During last livestream he answered all the questions, so he will likely do the same during next time as well. I think this will be the best opportunity to present constructive criticism. As long as we remain respectful and back up our claims with facts, we should have good odds of making Fizzer rethink his position.

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If anyone is organizing anything regarding CW and clan cap situation, let me know! I will be glad to support you!

look if fizzer caps all the old clans and refunds the purchase amount with interest that's a win win

look if fizzer caps all the old clans and refunds the purchase amount with interest that's a win win

By this logic, Fizzer could also delete all capped clans, refunding the purchase amount with interest and that's a "win/win".

I'll take that deal if instead of interest he refunds based on 1.5x the cumulative SPX return since the clan purchase. Win/win

Oh and he also owes me like $10 (plus interest) for that clan of mine he quietly deleted without good cause. So for something like $130 total I'd say it's a win win.

Maybe he should also compensate for the hours of labor and coins people put into building up communities in the uncapped clans. IDK how to price that but it probably runs into the four figures for some very active clan leaders like Harmony.

Edited 11/2/2024 16:03:20

Good, Fizzer should remove big clans altogether. This idea is for too long and if he sees value in smaller clans so be it.

The problem is clans of half this size are usually dead. But 50 members seems like a reasonable player base.

100

Defend why “Harmony” can’t be a discord channel that chats, shares private tournament links, connects experienced players with noobs, etc. “Harmony” could also spin up a ~40 member CW team of the same name on-site as a “clan” for just the members interested in CW. And there would be no need for alts!

Unless you can clearly explain this, you’ll be facing an uphill battle.

It's probably possible for Harmony to be a discord channel that chats. But what is the advantage for Fizzer?
Moving more website activity to Discord? Moving the community further away from the website? Sounds like you're just damaging your interests.
There will not be 5 clans made just so everybody from Harmony can "officially" be in a clan. The community will probably return to the old system of putting a clan tag in front of your name. All that you've accomplished is that you've moved activity away from the Warzone website and you've made it more difficult for people to find a community that helps them stay active.

The advantage is Fizzer’s dogmatic belief that clans of ~40-50 are optimal because that’s what Clash of Clans uses

Min is correct...

can someone use 5s stats to see what % of CW participation comes from capped/uncapped clans by season? you can get capped/uncapped based on clan ID

it seems like the active community has a strong preference for uncapped clans

I have not read the entire thread and hope I'm not repeating someone else's point, but part of the reason why people are so mad about this is, I believe, that Fizzer is setting contradictory incentives.

CW is, by design, still an activity competition. You have to play every day in order to be competitive, or have a certain number of games played every day, which requires a substantial coordination effort if this was to be different players on different days. Leaving that aside, no clan has more than 50 strong players, so having rotating players play is only a theoretical option.

At the same time as setting the incentive to have many active players (which is super tough on Warzone, I can tell for sure after managing clans here for almost a decade) rather than a small elite squad, Fizzer suddenly sets a cap on that.

This is a point at which people just feel treated unfairly. You are essentially supposed to have exactly 50 players, as any deviation from that will give you a disadvantage (clans with fewer players will miss out on points every day, clans with more players suffer all the things discussed above). This is a completely arbitrary and very hard to fulfill requirement, in a setting that is meant for fun.

Unlike most speakers above, I do not believe that a hard clan cap is a terrible thing automatically. However, you have to design it right. You cannot have it both ways. Want a skill competition? Amazing, give a clan with 15 players the same chances as with 50. Want an activity competition? Remove the clan cap, or you will completely lose the rest of people's trust.

Imagine an organizer of a professional football team. The team's goal is to make it to the championship game and ultimately win the most prestigious prize in the world. The organizer gathers his players to make his team. But, sadly, 75% of his players don't want to play football. They want to sit on the bench and watch the remaining 25% play. They're needed in the game, and he asks them to go in, but they say "No sir, I don't want to play. I'm not very good at football." Will this team be successful in their goals of winning the championship?

Clan Wars is a team sport. Your clan war ranking is a reflection of how good your clan is at clan wars. A clan where most people are very bad or refuse to play outright should never get anywhere near the #1 rank in my opinion.

@Fizzer, You are aware that professional football teams also have a "reserve team" on hand, right? Reserve teams commonly consist of players that are not usually involved in the core seasonal matches, but can be brought on to fill in the slot for someone in the "primary team" that may need to sit out for x amount of games due to a fractured leg for instance, and/or are training to someday become part of the primary team/core roster.

While I agree that clans with players that just play/win a single game then dip and/or are just bad at the game shouldn't expect to place near the top, there shouldn't the burden that "Players that aren't even involved in the event can drag down those that are actively engaging". You already have a system in place that tracks who's actually participating/contributing to each clans performance, reflected by the caveats for the rewards given out at the end of the season (if you don't participate/contribute, you get nothing); but with the new points system, you're essentially telling legacy clans "There is no reserve team. If one of you joins, you are all participating, even if you don't qualify for the 'free cache' reward at the each of the season"

Since you essentially added a 25 point/day cap for clan war progress (as noted in your blog post), if you want to encourage full clan participation for legacy clans, while not also punishing those that can't always do that (because they might be too large to ensure 100% participation every day), you could have the point system be something like this:

if (CurrentDayParticipators <= 25), then (PointsAdded == CurrentDayWins);
elseif (CurrentDayParticipators > 25), then (PointsAdded == (CurrentDayWins/CurrentDayParticipators) * 25)

Example,
Clan A has 20 participants in a given day and Clan B has 35 participants in the same day. Clan A gets 13 wins and Clan B gets 20 wins. Clan A would get 13 points since they had 25 or fewer players participating that day, but since Clan B had more than 25 participate that day, they would get (20/35) * 25, or 14.3 points (rounding to nearest tenth)

I think this method would help make the playing field more level for capped clans while not unfairly nerfing uncapped clans, while keeping everything in line with the wording of the season rewards caveats.

Edited 11/8/2024 05:11:55

I have completed clan health and CW activity data analysis. For seasons 55 and 54 I used https://wz-cw.5smith.ru Season 56 data has been gathered manually.

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The above is overview of clan activity within CW season 56 clans. Any player who has played within last 30 days has been considered to be active. Out of 85 participating clans, 68 had activity rate above 50% and 55 had at least 70% activity rate. No significant activity differences have been spotted between capped and uncapped clans.

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The above data covers Clan League 17th season clans. Yet again most of clans are healthy. Some Division A clans have merged since the end of last CL season, so it accounts for lower activity in this tier.

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This is the final table on clan health subject. It depicts activity of all clans which have been open during CW Season 56. "Genuine" are independent clans. These clans are further split into capped and uncapped clan categories. "Other" refers to all secondary clans which are part of bigger clan groups. Independent clans overall tend to be much healthier than other clans.

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This table shows average game amount played by TOP 25 clans over the whole duration of season 56. Percentage values show how that particular day compares to peak activity. First 4 days have been most active and final 2 days had the lowest amount of player participation.

This data by itself is nothing special. First few days can be explained by player excitement for a new season. Near the end of season it becomes clearer which clan is going to take which place in the leaderboard, so there's less reasons to keep playing at that point.

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This is data of overall clan activity during season 56. "Per active" refers to total amount of players who have played withing last 30 days. "Per participant" only considers players who played in Clan Wars. The purpose of this table is to showcase that having more players in a clan does not automatically translate into higher CW participation rates.

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This table showcases direct activity comparison between first and last 3/7 days of season 56. The amount of average games generally has decreased for majority of clans throughout this season. Among usual CW heavy hitters, most significant activity drops happened within After_Dark, Myth Busters, Harmony, The Last Alliance and Optimum.

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This data showcases top clan daily CW activity decline in season 56. For clarity, Season 54 lasted for 23 days, season 55 for 11 days and 56th season took 21 days to finish. TOP rankings/clans are different for each season. Likely explanation on why activity shrunk the most in top 5/10 is that some of the competing clans have received lower scores due to 51+ player penalties.

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This and the remaining tables showcase motivated player decline within clans. These are players who play on at least 70% of all days. It's important to state that season 55 was shorter than usual, so it might have contributed to higher amount of CW regular players during that season. Most demoralized clans were Harmony, The Last Alliance, knyte club and Myth Busters.

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The final 2 tables go into more detail on motivated player decrease.

Below is for capped clans:

Below is for 51+ player clans:

Each season the total participating amount of capped and uncapped clans differed, so it made "all" category less accurate.

Primary reason why some positive results appear is that multiple uncapped clans had significant ranking falls due to CW scoring penalties. If less active uncapped clans don't appear in TOP X it is inevitably going to give a large boost to motivated player average.

All top categories had more small clans than usual and this also tanked motivation score. Main takeaway from this data is that now small clans can get higher rankings with less effort.

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Season 56 introduced better rewards, more templates and revised scoring system. In spite of all these, there was no increase in player activity. Based on the data, it can be stated that at bare minimum CW season 56 saw a slight decrease in player motivation and total amount of played games.

Another conclusion is that there is no clan health issue as most CW clans have active communities. The real problem is the lack of player care for Clan Wars events. From all active clan players, only up to ~15% sometimes play in CW and less than 5% are regular participants. All things considered, Clan Wars are a deeply unpopular activity.

It's possible that it's a me issue but I cannot see any images/tables at the post above.

I can see images but I don't really understand the points the post is trying to make.

I just noticed that the # of wins required for the rewards has gone up a lot from S56 to S57.
Did I miss some update notes somewhere?